Warrior Design

[Ragamuffin]

Would be cool if we had a motivated imm to work on warrior design or something. Not sure where we'd find one of those though. This will probably fall to me eventually, once I'm done with the latest thief upgrades that you and Shandon talked me into.

Hi guys.  I've been meaning to post this but I've held off mostly because I'm lazy.  I'd like to keep this thread mostly me, but if you have comments/ideas I would like to hear them.

That being said, let me go through some background.  A while ago, I decided to restart my 3.1 warrior, Peewee, and play him up to level 50.  I gave myself the rules that I would start from complete scratch, and not accept handouts/help from other people.  I almost got there, although I was given a couple items which I broke the rule for (2 level sword, one damage level 25 and one damage level 40, one of which I lost after 2 hours, another which I got at level 37 and still have).  All in all though, if I got something I paid for it.

I also have a level 50 Mage, and a level 20-something thief.  My overall impression of the class is that it is pretty fun to play, but lacking in tatics and frustrating to solo.  Most of my time was spent soloing.  Leveling wasn't too difficult though, but time consuming.  Often I would fight for 4 minutes, and then watch a southpark mpeg on my machine for the 10 minutes I had to sleep.  I also enjoied the class in that I felt relatively safe.  There are few creatures I could just walk into and get hamered (much different from my weak mage).  Right now, my warrior is much more self-reliant and useful to getting money.  He repairs all of his own eq, and he can solo higher-level mobs with buffs.  My mage, by contrast, might get close, however its a long and drawn out fight.  The same mobs I've watched clerics disease/blind and wait on killing I can kill quite easily.  My warrior has level 45 eq (ogre sized) which was somewhat scarse, and he hasnt quite finished his set.  None of his eq is very far from his level, although he does have a level 50 quest reward weapon.

So here are his stats:

Code:

In your career:
You have been playing for 12 days and 23 hours.
Creatures killed : Alone  11063, Group 1324. Exp Gained : 1527977984.00
Combat   : hit%      damage ratio (inflicted:received)
normal   : (72.32%)     19.669:1.0
defensive: (21.12%)     2.216:1.0
offensive: (64.31%)     13.786:1.0
berserk  : (76.12%)     23.245:1.0
Total deaths: 3, Arena deaths: 1, Arena victories: 0
Skill Success  : 82.234%
Spell Success  : 62.556%
Prayer Success : 56.655%
Pets owned: 1 of an average level of 7.000
Combat inflicted : crit-hits 1723, crit-misses 138, crit-kills 583
Combat suffered  : crit-hits 35, crit-kills 0
Ounces of blood lost                    : 1118
COMBAT-CRIT: Weapons stuck in foot      : 4
COMBAT-CRIT: Beheadings inflicted       : 92
COMBAT-CRIT: Severed limbs inflicted    : 187
COMBAT-CRIT: Severed limbs suffered     : 1
COMBAT-CRIT: Broken bones inflicted     : 87
COMBAT-CRIT: Broken bones suffered      : 3
COMBAT-CRIT: Crushed skulls inflicted   : 68
COMBAT-CRIT: Cleaved in two inflicted   : 46
COMBAT-CRIT: Disembowels inflicted      : 17
COMBAT-CRIT: Crushed Nerves/Muscles inflicted   : 26
COMBAT-CRIT: Crushed Nerves/Muscles suffered   : 4
COMBAT-CRIT: Punctured Voice Boxes inflicted   : 1
COMBAT-CRIT: Gouged Out Eyeballs suffered   : 1
COMBAT-CRIT: Weapon Impalings inflicted   : 31
COMBAT_CRIT: Genitalia Severings inflicted   :  13
COMBAT_CRIT: Teeth knocked out inflicted :  12

Code:

The following disciplines are valid:
             Warrior Abilities : Learnedness: 100%
        Hand to Hand Abilities : Learnedness: 100%
               Brawling Skills : Learnedness: Unlearned
               Physical Skills : Learnedness: 100%
                 Smythe Skills : Learnedness: Unlearned
                 Slash Weapons : Learnedness: 100%
                 Blunt Weapons : Learnedness: 100%
                Pierce Weapons : Learnedness: Unlearned
                Ranged Weapons : Learnedness: Unlearned
                 Combat Skills : Learnedness: 100%
            Adventuring Skills : Learnedness: 100%
           Defensive Abilities : Learnedness: 100%
          Advanced Adventuring : Learnedness: Unlearned

bash                        Current:  (maxed)        
trip                        Current:  (maxed)        
berserk                     Current:  (maxed)        
smythe                      Current:  (maxed)        
headbutt                    Current:  (superb)      
kneestrike                  Current:  (superb)      
kick                        Current:  (extremely good)
disarm                      Current:  (decent)      
switch opponents            Current:  (decent)      
rescue                      Current:  (fair)    
power move                  Current:  (maxed)        
deathstroke                 Current:  (extremely good)
dual wield                  Current:  (very good)    
doorbash                    Current:  (horrid)    
parry                       Current:  (very good)    
retreat                     Current:  (very good)    
shove                       Current:  (lousy)        
defensive trance            Current:  (bad)      

More to follow.. my ideas about how to make warriors more fun to play.

[Ragamuffin]

Basically my ideas for a warrior improvement come down in three ways:
Thematic Improvement, More Solo Ability, and Tactical Options.

Thematic Improvement
Warriors need a better 'themed' discipline system.  What does 'physical abilities' vs 'hand to hand' really mean?  It doesnt describe stuff.

My fix for this would be a simple rename, although it means a skill shuffle as well.  I would rename the 4 warrior disciplines into: Brawling, Battlecraft, Dueling, and Blacksmithing.  I'm flexible on the names.  Here are the themes.  Perhaps theres room to add another discipline too :)

Brawling- A Brawler is a rough and tumble warrior, who defeats his opponens by doing the unexpected and sometimes underhanded.  A Brawler is most comfortable in a rowdy tavern, in a tight place, or in a no holds barred streetfight.

Battlecraft- A warrior skilled in Battlecraft knows the ways of a battlefield and how to survive in one.  They are able to slaughter multiple weak enemies in the thick of battle, and can rally their allies for a coordinated attack.

Dueling- A Duelist is the master of subtle combat moves, a quick thrust and a skilled parry.  A Duelist relies on his training to maximize the effect of his weapons.

Blacksmithing- A Blacksmith is a master of metals and their alteration.  A skilled blacksmith can repair and enhance items, making them more useful for any warrior.

More Solo Ability
Warriors need a bit more ability to not go crazy when they need to heal up their 450+ hitpoints.  I have some skills I'll introduce later which address this.

Tactical Options
This improvement has two parts.  First, some skills need to be semi-touched to make them fit a bit better into the system and to give them better distinction.  Secondly, I would like to change 'attack modes'.  One, I want to rename it to 'fighting stances' which denotes that its not just for 'attack'.  Two, I would like to add alot more.

Basically, all fighting stances would be based on the three basic ones (defensive, normal, offensive).  We already have trance and berserk.  Those are obvously based on the defensive and offensive fighting stances.  The goal of a well-designed fighting stance is a zero-sum game.  What I mean is that the usage of the skill has a net effect of zero for the player.  A good example are the base fighting stances, where you lose some offensive power for a higher AC, or vice-versa.  Berserk and Trance follow similar models.  I'd like to make sure that concept extends as we add more stances.

Next, I'll talk about the skills and their breakdown.

[Ragamuffin]

* Denotes a skill which is in the Basic Warrior Discipline.
+ Denotes a fighting stance.
# Denotes an ability (an automatic or always-on skill, not a 'move')

Brawling
*Trip - This needs to be differentiated from Bash better.
*Kneestrike - Stunning, can damage legs/waist.
*Shove - Make this work a bit better.  Add some lag?
Headbutt - Same as before, except remove eq damage (no other attacks do).  Add a crit stunning?
Doorbash - Fix this
Grapple - This needs to be fixed/balanced.  It should sacrifice all your attacks (need to use no wpns) for remove some of their attacks.  It should be a level-based zero-sum or less game.  So if you are level 50, you can stop some percent of an opponents attacks.  This needs alot of thought.
Stomp - This should do limb damage, or stunning if you get their head.
#Drunken Stupor - When drunk, increases your regen to Enliven rates (higher?).
Taunt - Causes an opponent to possibly get confused, switch opponents (to you), or to someone randomly in the room (ala brawl code).
Bodyslam - knowks opponent down, adds lag/stunning.   This is a super-bash.
+Exhaustive Stance - A defensive fighting stance where some of your damage is in movement.  Also you pay a movement cost and cause your opponent (dependant on skill) to incur one.
#Close Quarters Fighting - A successful use of this skill removes attack penalties for fighting in a cramped place.
#Brawling Master - at 100%, a brawler is never 'caught in a brawl' accidentally.

Battlecraft
*Kick - This should be altered to do more damage, or scale upward with level.  Can be done to anyone, although hitting flying targets is hard if you arent.
*Bash - This needs to be differentiated from Trip better.
*Berserk - Same as before (offensive fighting stance)
+Whirlwind Attack - This is an offensive fighting stance which is area effect.  Every combat round you get a single attack on everyone in the room (except obvious allies).  Maintaining this stance is difficult and somewhat tiring.
#Power Move - Same as before.
Deathstroke - Essentially force a crit.  Can only be used 1/day.  This could be a bad crit too (drop wpn, etc).  Also has lockout of course.
+Phalynx Fighting - a defensive fighting stance where 1/2 of your shield AC is taken from you and given to group members.  So if two warriors are in a Phalaynx, no AC change.  Three gives 50% shield bonus.  Four gives everyone an extra shield (essentially).
Warcry - You rally your allies (not you), giving them some attack bonuses for a short time.  Can only be used once every 3 hours.
#Bloodlust - Some small health/movement is regnerated to you every time you slay an opponent.
#Miraculous Survival - a warrior with 100% Battlecraft is immune to crit kills and quivering palms (crit kills become just critical hits).

Dueling
*Disarm - This should be altered to use disarm skill to augument disarm defense.  Also train faster.
*Rescue - Same as before.
*#Switch Opponents - Same as before.
#Parry - Same as before.
Lunge - Sacrifice some AC and attacks for 1 round for a single good hit.
Feint - Sacrifice some AC and attacks for 1 round to lower your opponents AC for some short time (if they take the bait).
#Riposte - with a successful parry, you may get an extra attack in your next combat round.
+Defensive Trance - Same as before.
#Fencing Master - A Duelist with 100% skill never drops his weapon.
==need 1-2 more skills here??==

Blacksmithing
#Advanced Repair - allows repair of other random stuff
Temper - Given the right tools and proper oils, allows a blacksmith to attempt hardening the strength of metal weapons and equipment.
Engrave - Given the right tools, allows a blacksmith to engrave an item with an owners mark.
#Craftsmans Eye - A 100% skilled blacksmith can evaluate weapons and armor which they can repair extremely well, similar to a divinating wizard (maybe balance this more).

As you may note, the main goal of these skill changes and adds is not to add more damage moves to the class.  Warriors already _do_ damage with their weapons.  What they need is more tatical options soloing, grouped, etc.

I think thats about it for my typing at the moment.  Maybe I'll add a bit more later.

[dyehead]

All very thought provoking.
Well done, Jeeves.

[Fitz]

Serious props to you!  Well thought out and presented.  It gets even ME excited to play a warrior.

[Ambpot]

The "package" nature, and too many small specifics to make fun
of them all, of this thread.. *hawks a loogie over his shoulder*

If something called BATTLECRAFT appears in Beth's prac list,
she's gonna pull a Kitado on ye olde monument, mmkay?
That would be bad.

I like the current system, I like the current ATTACK modes, the
current disciplines are COOL, it's just the freaking skills are too
heinously balanced.  Headbutt should hurt a bit more, sheesh you
chip your helmet half the time.  Maybe stun 'em if you hit their
noggin.  Bash, then stomp.  Bash, then kick.  Trip, bodyslam!
These kind of combos should maybe be more effective.

Please try to work within the current system with your ideas,
if you have ideas like "Phalanx" freaking fighting, put it in a
seperate idea thread for consideration.

Drinking should make you heal a little faster, I agree.  Faster than
enliven?  WTF!  And what does it have to do with warriors?  It has
to do with drinking.  Focus, jedi!  Seperate idea!

[Fedaykin]

The "package" nature, and too many small specifics to make fun
of them all, of this thread.. *hawks a loogie over his shoulder*

If something called BATTLECRAFT appears in Beth's prac list,
she's gonna pull a Kitado on ye olde monument, mmkay?
That would be bad.

I like the current system, I like the current ATTACK modes, the
current disciplines are COOL, it's just the freaking skills are too
heinously balanced.  Headbutt should hurt a bit more, sheesh you
chip your helmet half the time.  Maybe stun 'em if you hit their
noggin.  Bash, then stomp.  Bash, then kick.  Trip, bodyslam!
These kind of combos should maybe be more effective.

Please try to work within the current system with your ideas,
if you have ideas like "Phalanx" freaking fighting, put it in a
seperate idea thread for consideration.

Drinking should make you heal a little faster, I agree.  Faster than
enliven?  WTF!  And what does it have to do with warriors?  It has
to do with drinking.  Focus, jedi!  Seperate idea!

I dunno, i think this would actually be a cool idea.  You would have to work on balance issues (as always) but these are things that can be ironed out as people find all the little loop holes and tricks that always seem to appear..as i once heard it called, "de-frobozz" it all :p

The current system of warriors is neat, yeh - but it would be seriously cool if warriors were to shift like this, but it would require alot of work,  especially as the recommended race/class for any newbie to the mud is human warrior...

The main thing that detracts me from playing my warrior is the heinous regen times..even as a hobbit with his sleeping bag it's still a right pain in the arse.  This would make it way cooler.

The main danger of it all however, is the ability for the class to become the ultimate 'all-rounder'.  If you had warrior skills on this scale with this variety, it wouldn't take long for someone like DyeHead to sit there and play a warrior for so long he's suddenly the best at everything - which as Peel said is fine, work for it, you get it.  It just means that everyone will start churning out characters like this.  Maybe if having certain skills bar's you from getting certain other skills...who knows.  Right now, just about every class rely's heavily on the race to determine how good it will be at certain activities.  You're not going to want to create a hobbit tanking warrior.  Certainly, one could exist, and could possibley do well, but compared to a dwarven or human warrior it would be insignificant.  Same again visa-versa for hitting warriors.  It would seem with all these skills, if one were to sit there patiently and plow and plow and plow for pracs, you'd be able to end up with just about everything available, and be insanely good at all..and then we'd end up with everyone playing their warriors all the time :p

Maybe not, i might just be pessimistic.

[IRS]

How about breaking them out into a couple of different classes, and recommending them as new classes.  Work on them some more, flesh them out, then we can add a "barbarian" class and some other appropriate.  Fedaykin is correct, it's never a good idea to have an all-round class as it would just add to the twink.  You have to be mindful of the fact that allowing each class to solo well will have an adverse effect on balance, as an upgrade in solo ability will invariably add to group-strength while grouping.

[Fitz]

The main danger of it all however, is the ability for the class to become the ultimate 'all-rounder'.

Lol, this coming from the uber-shaman.

[peel]

I like the discipline re-org.  I don't like the Battlecraft name - perhaps Soldiering, Warmaking, Art of War, I dunno.  I like Soldiering.

Lot of other good ideas.  I'll start thinking about a good step-by-step plan to move forward on this.

I have to go to class.

Peel

[Fedaykin]

The main danger of it all however, is the ability for the class to become the ultimate 'all-rounder'.

Lol, this coming from the uber-shaman.

QUIET YOU!

QUIET ALL OF YOU POTION ADDICTED SMACK HEADS!

*cackle*

Besides which, Fed's not THAT much of an 'all-rounder'.

He can manage to heal, or tank, or cast, or hit, to a reasonable degree at all.  But he's definately no poppin, or slab, or frobozz, or thelonius.  He's a well rounded character, that's for sure, but my impression was that warriors with these skills would eventually be able to take up the top mantle at both tanking and hitting, all at once.

[Ragamuffin]

Thanks for the feedback.  Those are definitely all good things to think about.

Soldiering is good.  Warmongering?

I was hoping on having names that were useable as a profession.  I am a Duelist.  I am a Warmonger.  I am a Brawler.  Etc.  Its not too important.

[Ragamuffin]

Also I think it might be cool to add another discipline.  For more variety, as above posters called out.  I have some ideas, but none very fleshed out yet.

[Cirius]

This is the kind of thread we need much, much more often. Good ideas and positive, constructive criticism. Nice job, Ragamuffin, very well thought out. It would be cool if eventually we could have "sub-classes" like this for every class.

[peel]

Brawling
*Shove - Make this work a bit better.  Add some lag?

Not sure what happened to shove, but it'd be cool if it worked again.

Taunt - Causes an opponent to possibly get confused, switch opponents (to you), or to someone randomly in the room (ala brawl code).

How about: makes the mob less likely to switch away from you.

#Close Quarters Fighting - A successful use of this skill removes attack penalties for fighting in a cramped place.
#Brawling Master - at 100%, a brawler is never 'caught in a brawl' accidentally.

Excellent.

Battlecraft
+Whirlwind Attack - This is an offensive fighting stance which is area effect.  Every combat round you get a single attack on everyone in the room (except obvious allies).  Maintaining this stance is difficult and somewhat tiring.

Already prototyped this for monks.  It turned out to be very hard to code, contrary to what I would have thought.

+Phalynx Fighting - a defensive fighting stance where 1/2 of your shield AC is taken from you and given to group members.  So if two warriors are in a Phalaynx, no AC change.  Three gives 50% shield bonus.  Four gives everyone an extra shield (essentially).

Interesting idea, not so sure about the details.  Can't think of a better implementation right now though.

Warcry - You rally your allies (not you), giving them some attack bonuses for a short time.  Can only be used once every 3 hours.

Not bad.  Could also have it shake up the opponent a bit and/or have bystander mobs flee.

#Miraculous Survival - a warrior with 100% Battlecraft is immune to crit kills and quivering palms (crit kills become just critical hits).

The crit hitting code can take a modifier to lesson the severity of crits, that would be a good way to implement a skill like this.

Dueling
Lunge - Sacrifice some AC and attacks for 1 round for a single good hit.
Feint - Sacrifice some AC and attacks for 1 round to lower your opponents AC for some short time (if they take the bait).
#Riposte - with a successful parry, you may get an extra attack in your next combat round.

Good.  Surprised we don't already have riposte.

#Fencing Master - A Duelist with 100% skill never drops his weapon.

Heh.  Simple and good.

==need 1-2 more skills here??==

Some sort of disarm resistance skill.  Pommel strike, generic attack move.

Couple of fencing moves I'm familiar with from my younger swashbuckling days: Balestra, generic attack move (a quick hop or skip followed by a lunge).  Fleche, sort of like charge, but on foot.

Blacksmithing
#Advanced Repair - allows repair of other random stuff
Temper - Given the right tools and proper oils, allows a blacksmith to attempt hardening the strength of metal weapons and equipment.
Engrave - Given the right tools, allows a blacksmith to engrave an item with an owners mark.
#Craftsmans Eye - A 100% skilled blacksmith can evaluate weapons and armor which they can repair extremely well, similar to a divinating wizard (maybe balance this more).

Best ideas out of the bunch I think.  I'd implement this verbatim.

Peel